So it’s been over two months since I went veg. I sailed through the first 4 weeks. By week 5, I wasn’t feeling super great, but didn’t connect it to my diet. By week 6, I was noticing I really wasn’t feeling very good. Mostly I felt run down, and I wasn’t sleeping well. In week 7, I began not sleeping well on a regular basis, and waking up in the middle of every night, with my heart pounding and racing. I thought I was having panic attacks, and sometimes the episodes would kick off an attack, but often I woke up with no anxiety at all.
This has been going on for the last couple weeks, and let me tell you, I am EXHAUSTED. I got really sick a few days ago, and Greg and I are both convinced it’s because I haven’t been getting any sleep.
I reached my two month vegetarian anniversary (monthiversary?) feeling impressed with myself for having come this far so easily, but forced to admit I felt like, well, crap.
So then I ate some meat.
Jason was making some pasta with beef, and it smelled awful. I’ve noticed this lately, that meat smells really bad to me. Repellent. But here he was, asking me to taste some pasta and telling me, “I made a non-meat version for you to try,” and out of my mouth come the words, “Just give me a bit of what you have.” So he gives me a dubious look, and hands me the fork. And I ate a bite. And it tasted both wrong, and OH SO RIGHT. So then I ate the entire bowl.
And then I found out it was lamb. LAMB, PEOPLE. Not beef, not a cow, but a lamb. A LAMB. I REALLY CANNOT EXPRESS THE ANGST HERE.
Jason felt bad, because I know he doesn’t eat beef, so what did I think he was eating? And he was right, he’s never eaten beef, I should have known any ground “beef” he was making would be something else, but I just didn’t get it. So then I felt like crying, both because I’d just eaten a baby animal ground to bits, and because I felt, okay let’s just admit it: so….much…..better. I really did. Suddenly it was like my head just cleared, mental fog gone.
And then I went to bed, and I slept better than I had in two weeks.
So then I ate some more meat.
The next day, I woke up, and I still felt awful. The book I’d read, Eating Animals, was coming back to me, all the images of the factory farms. I felt sick. But I didn’t want another day trying to stuff myself full of beans (see below), and I was really curious to see what would happen if I ate some more meat. So I did. I had both chicken AND eggs, devouring the whole question entirely.
That night, I slept through the night, like a rock.
So now I don’t know what to do.
I’m in a quandary at this point, and quite honestly very close to giving up this blog completely, because writhing around in this fashion is bad enough, but doing it publicly is doubly painful. I’ve spend the last 20 years of my life, since I was 15 years old, pining to be a vegan. I’ve tried so many times, and failed so many times, and I really thought this was it, I was on my way. TWO MONTHS! That’s so long for me! I’ve never gone two months with any eating plan, let alone one that asked me to give up bacon.
The real pain in the ass is that I didn’t just manage it, it was easy, and you know why? Because of that whole internal shift, where I realized how I just had to move forward and live my values, that I didn’t want to keeping living as if everything that came out of (and went into) my mouth didn’t matter.
And that shift? That one that made being a vegetarian so easy? Well it stinks. Because it hasn’t gone anywhere, and now I feel horrible about having eaten chicken, and the lamb, and yet at the same time, it’s so nice to sleep! It’s so nice to be able to think during the day! It’s so nice to have energy!
So what am I supposed to do here? I’ve spent the last year and a half writing a blog about becoming vegan, and after a year and a half it actually looked like I was finally going to get somewhere, and now, well…….
I know it has to do with protein.
I’m pretty sure that a big problem with all this is protein. I know, I know, a lot of you vegans out there are rolling your eyes, but bear with me. The protein in vegetables is quite small, and you need to eat a LOT of them to reach the protein needs of moi. How do I put this lightly? HAHA? I am heavy. I am not petite. Even when I was a “normal” weight for my height, I was so rock-solid heavy that buff dudes would try to pick me up and then DROP ME. I’ve heard a lot of rock jokes, jokes about my density, etc. Despite my many prayers to God, I am not a hollow-boned waif. I have bulk.
To even start to meet my protein needs, I need about 4 cups of cooked beans a day, which is fine, except I don’t feel very good when I eat 4 cups of beans a day. It’s not farting – that trick about draining the soak water really does work. It’s just a feeling of being run down, incomplete, tired.
Tofu makes me feel worse. Remember that tofu dish I made? I had cramps after that for two hours. Tempeh did the same thing. Something in processed soy really makes me sick. I can have a little miso soup and feel fine, but that’s about it. The only thing with soy that I really seem to tolerate well is whatever they put in Spirutein shakes.
So I’ve been living on beans and Spirutein shakes, mixed veggies, green smoothies, soups, and as many whole-grains as I can find. This sounds like a pretty healthy diet, doesn’t it? I thought so. Overall I thought I was doing pretty well, leagues better than the old days when I’d stop eating meat, eat cheese pizza every day, and call myself a healthy vegetarian.
In the last few days, I’ve been doing all the above except taking away the beans and adding in 4-5 ounces of lean meat. The difference is incredible. Ethically, I feel pretty awful. Physically, I feel about a hundred times better.
SO WHAT NOW?
I’ve no idea. I really don’t know if I want to keep writing. It feels like I’m giving my audience whiplash, and frankly it’s become such a deeply personal issue that I don’t know if I feel comfortable letting people keep watching whatever transition period I seem to be in. It’s something I need to think about.
I can tell you what I’m doing now:
- I’m reading The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability
- I’m digging around for better information about vegetarian protein sources.
- I’m digging around for information on local sources of animal products.
- I’m taking one day at a time.
That’s it, at this point.
I’m also someone who has high protein needs, especially in the winter, so to feel good I have to really pay close attention to meeting those requirements. I feel best when I eat lots of stuff like oats, nuts/nut butter, seeds, quinoa, tempeh, higher-protein beans like lentils and chickpeas, plus some eggs, yogurt/kefir, and cottage cheese. And loads of cooked greens. I know some of these things are problematic for you. If I could eat gluten, I would be including barley, sprouted wheat bread, and some seitan too, though I don’t think seitan is a very balanced daily food.
For me, I find that a vegetarian diet has less room for error. I can’t fill up my stomach with light foods and then make up the protein with a piece of steak or whatever. I think omnivorous diets can be that way too – obviously a lot of omnivores are missing out on a lot of nutrients – but I suspect that it tends to play out more over the long term, whereas if I ignore my protein needs for a few days, I definitely feel it. I know some people think that protein cravings are bullshit, but that hasn’t been my experience at all. It’s the only time that I tend to crave meat, and I don’t even LIKE meat (which makes things a lot easier for me than for you!)
So yeah, I don’t have any answers here. I gave up veganism (or at least near-veganism) when I became soy-intolerant (I can eat soy again now, after eliminating gluten, which turned out to be the real culprit) – it just wasn’t tenable for me anymore. Visions of cottage cheese were dancing in my head. I think it would be really hard for me to be a healthy vegetarian without the stuff I mentioned above. I don’t know what to tell you about the ethical/emotional considerations other than going as local and sustainable as you can. Maybe if you decide to continue eating meat, you could make a commitment to buying it only from the most ethical sources you can find, and sticking to vegetarian meals when you eat out or something.
If you really believe protein to be the culprit, seitan is a perfect meat alternative for you. 4 oz. of seitan has 20 grams of plant-based protein. I make seitan on a weekly basis, and while too much of it gives me a tummy ache, it more than meets my protein needs, And, as Natasha suggested, dark leafy greens are high in vegetable protein. If you have issue with eating greens straight up, try blending them in smoothies. I have a green smoothie every single morning. If you are interested in some smoothie recipes, email me. Hang in there! There IS a solution!
Look into Skagit Valley Farm — they are where Mike/Ivana/Rod get their quarter-cows. Local meat, not sure if they’re organic or not, but it’s pastured/grass-fed, and they have pork and chicken as well.
There are other local meat vendors at the U-district farmers’ market, I believe. Might be a good place to check out.
Don’t stop writing the blog. Well, you can if you want obviously. But I mean do not worry about us. You are honest and you are you. Which is a wonderful thing. :) I have always thought it is a bad idea to deprive a body of a certain food. It just does not work. Well, unless you are allergic then it most certainly does. Like me and gluten. :) I say live life. Love life. And respect your body and foods that you put into it. I really only eat chicken as far as meat. It is all I like. But I do have beef every now and then because…well…tacos rock. My husband and I just focus our energy and putting healthy things in our body. All of our meat comes from a local farm that uses no antibiotics or chemicals on their animals. And the animals eat really well and healthy. You can tell the difference in the taste. And we feel better knowing we are not contaminating our bodies. And we garden. My gosh we love our garden. And then we have veggies to last us all winter.
Anyway, keep on writing. :)
I wonder if you should be transitioning more. When I switched from an omnivore diet to a vegetarian one (vegan some days, but never entirely), it took a few months before I could really digest all the fibrous new foods I was introducing to my plate. Tofu gave me terrible stomach cramps, my GI system always seemed a bit out of whack, etc etc… But after six months or so, I feel so much better. I used to always have a gassy belly but now I never have problems with that, no matter what I eat.
Just a thought. Maybe you can get good dairy, and occasional grass-fed beef, and slowly transition away from it? Either way, do keep up the blog!
Dear Hollie,
Please don’t stop writing. I can’t speak much to the issue of food. I know that I’ve been struggling with my own dietary issues for over ten years now and that my constant craving for protein has had all kinds of negative consequences but I’ve never done the kind of analytical experimentation you have so I don’t know what would or would not improve things.
But what I do know is that your writing and your experimentation has been intelligent, honest, and brave. I know that seeing what you’ve tested out and succeeded or failed with has given me and friends of mine a considerably better sense of what’s out there in a way that either a theory-only or a smug “I’m cooler and wiser than you” person like Gary Null never could. Your enticing and then frustrating “story arc” about what happened for you with kale chips is one that I have told at least half a dozen people and I know has changed the decisions of several of them.
What you’re putting yourself through is hard. And admirable. Your commitment to finding and explicating the associated science and politics is wonderful but, from the looks of it, understandably deeply enervating.
I’m not going to go on about this. Maybe all that I should be saying is one simple thing. What you’re writing matters. And it matters in a way that will still be relevant ten years from now, twenty years from now, fifty. You’re doing an honorable, honest, sometimes awkward quest and making it possible for others to come along for the ride in ways that let’s those others share in at least some of the resulting insight.
So, okay maybe there’s one more thing I really need to say. Whatever may lie ahead of you, for what you’ve done and writtten about already, thank you.
There is so much information available to you out here in the blogsphere, online, in cookbooks…if you’re intent on living well and being vegan, do your research. Melina Vesanto and Brenda Davis wrote Becoming Vegan which covers all you need to know and understand about proper nutrient needs, how to acquire them and what to do when feeling exhausted. Meat isn’t the answer- it’s your default. Ive been vegan over 6 years, work as a trainer, came from a bodybuilding family and have never felt better or been healthier. Check out myvega.com to learn about Brenden Brazier’s whole food and diet info- all plant based, alkaline forming stuff…the Whole Food Meal Optimizer, which is vegan and their brand new Vegan Protein. hemp is a complete protein, as is quinoa. Think outside the box, interms of adding your nutritional yeast, your sea veg, check your ron level- non-heme (plant based) iron needs to be absorbed with Vitamin C; little things you need to understand when changing your diet. Reading books on veg myths will nly serve to help you justify your battle with eating animals. If you’re ethically committed to making the change and living with comapssiona nd living well, look around. I sourced your blog from googling “vegan blogs” and that alone gave me hundreds of amazing resources. It’s tough in a vacuum, absolutely but the support is all around you. And cookbooks galore!!! vegan Vittles, vegan Planet, How It All Vegan, anything by Isa Chandra Moscowitz at the Post Punk Kitchen…happy Herbivore.com….tos and tons of info. I’d also hazard a guess that the anxiety and sleeplessness is a vicious circle. I don’t mean to rant but when I read/hear/ watch people who attempt veganism and fail then blame it on the “diet” not working for them, I believe it comes from ignorance, of not knowing how ones’ body processes whole foods compared to animal foods- and then having to be accountable and responsible and do the work. You can find unbelievable resources online, hook up with a local veg group, a meet-up group, talk to other veg people who are eating well and ask for help. But defaulting to animal products isn’t the answer.
I just got diagnosed with a GI issue- kinda like Crohn’s but we’re not sure- which means, being vegan, it’s gonna be tough; but I know tons of gluten free, soy free vegans- and they all have blogs to share info with you. I’ll never ingest animals again, or wear them or use them in any way shape or form. So now I have to do the work- and figure it out, because like anything new and strange and off the beaten path, there’s a learning curve.
hang in there- and start googling.
Hmmm…I’m curious about magnesium. We really need magnesium for sleep, and when I’ve been limiting/eliminating dairy (been vegetarian for 35+ years), I do find I need to supplement w/ calcium/magnesium. Don’t know how you feel about supplements (Country Life makes excellent vegetarian vitamins, don’t know how many are vegan) but it might be worth a try.
If I were starting from scratch, I would also do it more gradually than you’re describing. I think our guts need time to adjust to a whole foods diet. I remember various shifts and how my body would react strongly at first, just because it wasn’t used to it.
Don’t give up! Good luck however you go forward!
Hi Hollie! It’s possible that your body is detoxing from all those years of meat-eating, and that will not feel great but it’s a necessary transition to healthier eating. Also, meat and dairy are so addictive — I know because I grew up on it in Ohio every day of my life until I turned 30-something and realized that I was causing horrific animal suffering and also that I would end up looking like just about everyone at the Wal-Mart and McDonald’s — not a pretty picture! Maybe you’re dealing with a little bit of withdrawal also, not just chemically but also just missing some of the familiar foods that you loved. I say give it more time. Remember why you went veg in the first place. My husband works out a lot and so he wants a dense protein with every meal. So I rotate it: One day beans (and there are SO MANY kinds and so many things you can make with them), the next day tempeh, the next day some fun Gardein, Tofurky sausages, veggie burgers or other veg meat, occasionally seitan, occasionally tofu, and then back to beans. All this made into yummy sloppy joes, chilis and stews, burritos and tacos, pizza, pastas, man you name it! Get some more good cookbooks, try your recipes on friends, and learn how to make some good chow. Connect with other local veg people and groups. It takes time and practice! And the courage to do what you know is right, which feels really good. Your bod will adjust as long as you eat a salad and/or dark leafy greens every single day. And not too many sweets and junk food. Are you excercising, getting sunshine, sleeping enough? Go for it, all of it. Good luck and I will follow your progress, or e-mail me privately for cooking tips and recipes. Skip the “Happy Meat.” See http://www.humanemyth.org for the facts on that.
Hollie
I was a vegetarian for many years, starting in Jr High until I was about 30. At that time, I was studying massage and I was feeling really tired and light headed after doing massage all day. My teacher told me to go eat some meat. I was dubious, but did and right away I felt better.
I still eat many many meals without meat, but for ME, I find meat to be strengthening, especially beef.
The book that most effected my feeling about this is oddly “Stranger in a Strange Land”, where the main character would eat his friends once they died so he could “grok” them better. The idea that we take in some of the energy of what we eat resonates to me, so I do eat cows as my meat of choice.
Cows, if they are from Country Natural Beef, do have a relatively happy life. I grew up in an area with a lot of cows, and they pasture, live in groups, eat grass, get rained on, and generally have an OK mellow existence. Yes, they still die an early death, but it’s a quick death, and they go with their social group all together. (At least with Country Natural Beef which used to be called Oregon Country Beef, and since I’m from the Eugene area, those cows ancestors are the ones I saw in the fields near my home.)
The Dahli Lama suggests that if you are going to eat meat to eat beef as one cow feeds many, where a chicken feeds few.
I do eat some chickens, but I don’t prefer to. Have you ever met a chicken? Not my favorite animal.
I don’t eat lamb. I’ve met too many lambs.
I have a real challenge personally around pigs. I don’t like the idea of eating pigs, but I’m a hypocrite when it comes to bacon and sausage and salami. I eat very little of it, but it’s one of my personal hypocrisies.
Stiebrs farm, locally, has certified humane eggs – they are twice the price of cruel eggs, but still just about $.33 per egg. I pay it.
I keep meaning to read “the Omnivore’s Dilemma” but haven’t yet, but that phrase defines my feeling about it. I choose to be an omnivore, and I try to do it with some care and thought.
Best of luck with your journey.
R
Yes, gosh, hon. Look, you can eat meat! You don’t want to eat factory meat where animals have been treated cruelly, but that’s not, in fact, your only meat option! You live in the big city now, sister. You can find meat locally raised, treated lovingly, killed humanely. My uncle’s been raising beef cattle on his farm in McMinnville, OR since before I was born, so I have watched first-hand what the lives of humanely raised beef-cows look like. He raises about 8 cows at a time (1-2 bulls, depending). Every day, twice a day, he walks down the big hill to feed them, pet them, talk to them, hang out with them. He can walk right up to the bulls and they love to nuzzle pears out of his hands. I was there about three years ago when one of the cows was giving birth — we all got involved in the process because the labor wasn’t going well. When the baby cow died (it got stuck and we couldn’t get it out and I guess maybe it couldn’t breathe?), my uncle WEPT. My uncle — the man raising beef cattle for over 35 years — still cries every time one of those babies doesn’t make it.
So, you know what? I would eat those cows (in fact, I have eaten those cows, even though I don’t eat red meat typically — just a taste preference, not a moral one). They lived happy, healthy lives full of love and care. They didn’t suffer for a moment. If that’s your primary concern — suffering — then you have many, many options.
Listen to your body. Feed it what it needs. Do it responsibly. To me, that’s the most you can give. It’s all you’re required to give.
Love you.
p.s. Don’t believe everything you read on the Internet. Or, in fact, the vast majority of what you read on the Internet. If you want to know the truth, skip the web sites and go talk to an actual farmer who raises food animals. You can find them all over Seattle farmers markets — pick one out and talk to them and ask if you can visit the farm, see the animals in their environment, follow one all the way through to the end. If you don’t like what you see, then you’ve learned the truth for yourself, not second-hand off a web site, and it might make it easier for you to stick to your decision to give up meat no matter what the cost to your body (which probably will, in fact, adjust eventually to the missing foodstuff — this I agree with). But, for me, personally, I think what you’re missing here is first-hand knowledge. You’re a caring, loving person and you’re conflicted. Go find some real answers. NOT on the web. NOT in a book. Go to a farm, Holls. Let me know if you need a driver. We’ll take the kids — or not — and go see what we can find out.
xoxo
meg
Well, it’s not for everybody. You need to listen to YOUR body and figure out what’s right.
The fact that your body is telling you it does better with 4 ounces of lean meat per day doesn’t make you a bad person. Like you wrote, there are local sources of meat and farmers to support.
Real-life rarely boils down to an all-or-nothing, black-or-white, true-or-false answer. In fact, people who think that it does, tend to annoy the crap out of me, whether it’s in the realm of politics, personal choices, parenting style (ahem) or even more-abstract questions of morality. It’s not a True/False question, it’s an essay question. You choose your path, you make mistakes, you learn on the way and make adjustments, and hopefully you have fun doing it, and don’t make yourself or anyone else crazy in the process.
While it should be noted that I thought Avatar was kind of crap, I did appreciate the scene in which the alien lady killed the animal, which she and her coaliens would then eat, and after it was dead, she thanked it for its sacrificed for them. I wonder if you just need to get to know your food more personally, Hollie? I don’t mean start raising animals or even meet the animal you’re about to eat, which might be more horrible than helpful. But taking a few moments before you eat the meat to be thoughtful and grateful and thankful — maybe that can help your spirit as well as your body?
I have a friend who isn’t letting her children eat meat until they are old enough to decide if it’s right for them, by the way. If they are okay with the sacrifice. I thought that was kind of an interesting philosophy. Both parents are meat eaters, but it kind of reminded me of my parents’ take on religion when I was growing up — they took us to church every Sunday but wouldn’t let us be baptized, despite criticism from family members, until we were old enough to decide if we really believed. I appreciated that (even though then I got baptized and three years later decided it was all bunk).
I don’t know. I’m shutting up now. I just wanted to say, please don’t stop writing, because your honesty about your struggle here is not only fascinating and useful and educational, but it gives us a real look into your heart, which is vast and open and wonderful. And I love it. So, like, don’t stop. And stuff. Blah blah, be quiet, Meg. OVER AND OUT.
Typos galore! I should stop having margaritas for breakfast (just kidding, Mom!).
Not a fan of the humane meat movement- really. It’s about using animals, in any capacity and the primary tenet of veganism is compassion: http://www.vegansociety.com/- not “happy meat”. Animals are not ours to consume, exploit or inflict suffering on, no matter what the circumstances. If meeting cows on small farms assuages your guilt, understand that they are not here for our use; their deaths are not quick nor painless- no animal ever desires to be slaughtered, or milked for our consumption or skinned and worn for our fashion sense, warmth or palate. We do it because we can, because people will always rationalize their choices to fit their comfort zone and make life easier. You’re obviously struggling with massive ethical choices here and as a vegan I’m appalled by others who suggest that it’s ok, they’re happy animals and well treated. But that’s a non-argument if your primary concern is animal rights and no t animal welfare. What the humane movement inevitably does is allow the public to continue mass consumption of animals with a clear conscience. Environmentally, it’s a disaster- the ratio of grain needed to maintain a plant based to an anaimal one is absurd, but we all know that. Even small organic ‘humane” farms leave a massive footprint; and really, if you’re intent on living lightly and conscientiously, why would you choose to continue to inflict pain and suffering on animals? yes, I’m sure some farmers cry but when it comes down to it, those animals are property, they’re income, they’re kept to be slaughtered when they’re no longer of use; they do not get to live out their natural life spans- when they are no longer “of use” they are slaughtered.
Transition as you’re doing- keep writing, keep exploring, keep questioning and exploring as you’re doing, good on you! And I disagree, I wouldn’t discount information in books or online in preference of a real person- who the hell do you think is writing the information you’re accessing/ Of course, there is mounds of misinformation out there, regardless of the source- and many non-vegans have no clue how to live healthily on aplant based diet and frankly, are not at all educated in it, either. Why would they be? For years we’ve been maligned as freaks, weirdos, granola lovin’, tree-huggin’, animal rights extremists- and yes, there are those out there; but as a 38 year old professional actor and personal trainer who lives extraordinarily well and with a huge vegan community around me, I can tell you, we’re good folk.
Best of luck on your journey- just the fact you’re making informed choices is a massive step the majority of the population has yet to explore.
And if you haven’t found him yet, he’s brilliant- and a great RD as well: http://www.veganhealth.org/
I think one of the reasons why vegans are maligned as freaks and weirdos is because they use words like “appalled” when discussing other people’s viewpoints.
Guess what — we’re good people too, us meat eaters. Just sayin’.
“Killed humanely?”
Wow, thanks Meg- for inferring that I was a weirdo and freak because I have the courage of my convictions and yes, I do get appalled. And saddened and frustrated and elated and joyous- and I do not let my palate dictate my ethics. In an open forum I fell that it is my right and responsibility to voice myself in a clear and conscientious manner, without making a personal attack- and although you may fell that my being appalled somehow directly relates to my judgment of you as a person, you are incorrect. I was a meat eater for 30 years and then when I found out where my food was coming from I couldn’t continue to participate in the the horror of an animal based lifestyle. If i was appalled by incest or the abuse of children, the exploitation of any other sentint being, would that make me a freak and a weirdo? We fear and judge what we do not know or understand. I did not know or understand where my food came from, or make the connection between my “lambskin’ coat and an actual lamb. When I did, I was overwhelmed, angry, heartbroken and bewildered because knowledge begets a sense of responsibility and accountability- hence, I get appalled when people knowingly drink themselves into oblivion and then plow people down in their car. I am appalled when I see men and women, even children, kick their dog or swing their cat by it’s tail, or beat their children or emotionally abuse them in public.
yeah, I get appalled. And then I speak up. because too many people don’t and the appalling stuff? It becomes the norm. But I”m not a freak or a weirdo; I would ever deign to infer you were either as I don’t know you.
And oh my god, my spelling sucks too….ay carumba….
That wasn’t, in fact, what I was doing. But I do take issue with your tone, that’s for sure. Expressing that you’re “appalled” by my opinion on this and then insinuating that you’re somehow better informed than I am isn’t going to get you any closer to convincing me your position is the right one. And in my experience, this tends to be how the most vocal of vegans address those of us who still eat meat (though it should be noted here, perhaps, that I’m actually predominantly a vegetarian, but not for ethical reasons). I’d love to listen to your reasoned, informed opinions on this — I’m actually tremendously open-minded about this and almost every other subject worth discussing and I love to learn from others and listen to their experiences.
But the moment you start throwing out words like “appalled,” the dialogue shuts down for me. I’m not interested in learning that way. I don’t think you’re a freak or a weirdo at all — but you lost me with that word, and it’s a word that strikes me as incongruent with your previously stated compassion for the world.
p.s. Yes, killed humanely. It can be done, in fact. We do it to ourselves, even, we human beings, from time to time.
Stephanie, I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree, especially when it comes to both our spelling errors! But if there’s one thing I know, it’s that we need to have a margarita together. We can use vegan limes. And vegan tequila. And then we can get vegan drunk. We might surprise each other, is what I’m thinking.
Not too long ago, I went to a meeting of organic and small farmers in the Hudson Valley, NY, where they talked about their plans to build a slaughterhouse in the area. They showed a video of what they said was an ideal mobile slaughter operation. In this video, a calf was put in a tiny pen in full view of the other cows, and then the slaughterer pointed a rifle at his head. The calf was frantically trying to get away so the guy could not get a good shot for a long time. This went on until he shot the calf in the head, in front of the other cows. We’re not talking about “putting to sleep” here with a medication — which is what we do to humans, yes, and animals who are suffering. We’re talking in each and every case about a violent death — whether it’s throat-slitting, a bolt to the head, neck-breaking, electrocution, whatever else is used. There is so much to eat — why do we need to kill?
Carol Adams says that animals are always the “absent referents” in this whole discussion. What would they want? What are their interests? Isn’t their need for life itself given any consideration, compared to our craving for beef tacos?
By the way, many farmers at that meeting were horrified by what they saw in that footage. They got up and said that no matter how good they are to their animals, they lose control once the animal is loaded onto the truck to go to slaughter.
Every time slaughter operations are secretly videotaped, we see horrendous animal abuse — all hidden from public view. Let’s be honest about this.
Please keep writing to this blog, Hollie. No one has all the answers to these questions, these struggles you have. We are all finding our own way, and you have a gift for sharing that connects us to our own search for what is right and meaningful for our bodies, our family, community and world.
Look at the passions you out of people! You are obviously not alone in your search. Know that the search for what is right may never end. Can you be ok with the process?
We all comment with our own bias in mind. My bias, as you know, is moderation. Boring, sluggish, slow progress. Small steps. One new vegetable at a time. Snore. But I would still enjoy reading your blog if you took a gradual approach. Think how much you have learned in two months. Maybe you just need to let things digest for awhile. Maybe more trips to farms, gardens, and farmers markets and less reading might be the break you need.
Be kind to yourself. You are doing the best you can under the circumstances you are under. And do keep writing.
meg, I’m a cheeeeeeeeep drunk, you’ll like me! :) Alcohol, caffeine and chocoloate (gasp!) plus nuts and seeds, corn, dairy and animal proteins (already done) are things I’m now supposed to be removing from the diet; not that I drink much, but I like me some chocolate and coffee; so I’m in a position again where being newly diagnosed with a sever Gi issue may force me to eat differently and I’m going to try to figure out how to maintain my sense of self without doing harm to anyone else, me and the animals included.
If you’re even in vangroovy, or Toronto, we must enjoy some vegan margaritas…there’s a totally cool site, http://www.barnivore.com, that tells you what alcohol’s vegan.
Slainte!
JoanZ (and/or Stephanie), are you familiar with Temple Grandin’s research? I’m curious as to what the vegan community thinks about her work? I ask that openly, not with aggression. I recognize tone is hard to construe in a dialogue of this type, but I wanted to reiterate that all of this I’m saying openly and without aggression, and I truly do appreciate everybody’s comments and questions and this conversation in general.
As for asking the animals what they want, I confess to being slightly confused by that suggestion. I think animals mostly just want to live quiet, uninterrupted lives. They want to not be hungry, they want things not to hurt, they want to get to hang out in fields and munch on grass and not have to be alarmed by anything too alarming (although, in my experience, everything alarms cows, so their lives are perhaps more troublesome than they’d like regardless of circumstances). Some of them also want to be able to periodically rip other animals to pieces and then eat them, but strangely enough, those don’t tend to be the animals we ourselves choose to eat. (Except for fish, I guess.)
But I can’t really ask a cow if she would mind being a taco. She isn’t intelligent enough to answer that question. I will say that if someone asked ME if I minded being killed and eaten for food, I’d be just as likely to say yes as no, depending on the circumstances and who was asking. Obviously, this is hyperbolic — I don’t HAVE to eat a fish, for example, to survive, and I assume no one would ask to eat ME unless it was a matter of life or death. But I am definitely — me personally — more healthy if I do. And I can’t help but think that it’s actually okay to sacrifice a fish now and then to keep my body going full steam ahead. I do think I am more valuable than the fish. I don’t think that’s human arrogance. I’m more valuable to other people and also to other animals as well (though arguably less valuable to the planet as a whole; damn you, oil furnace). I certainly value Hollie more than I value the life of a fish or a chicken. Not just her life, but also her health and, at the smallest of levels, her OWN ability to live a simple, uninterrupted life of contentedness.
I have a great deal of respect for all forms of life, I really do. I’m not just saying that. I think about where my food comes from and I respect its sources. But I don’t think respect for life necessarily has to rule out the eating of meat. To me it merely mandates that we question, witness, and pursue.
Ivana, I really loved what you just said about “searching.” Yes, I am still searching too.
Stephanie, I’m so sorry to hear about your GI whatever-it-is. I have a cousin who is going through something similar and it’s been so hard to watch and not be able to do much to help. He’s actually a vegetarian, so he’s had some of the same types of complexities with diet changes that you’re likely having. I wish you great luck! My god, you have to give up chocolate? That just seems mean. If I ever do meet you in person, I will give your intestines a stern talking-to for that one.
I appreciate your thoughtfulness, Meg. For me, the value of a life belongs to the bearer of that life. What gives us the right to judge the value of others’ lives — power, maybe? The criterion of intelligence would render many humans among us “less valuable,” after all.
One of the most wonderful parts of Daniel Quinn’s “Ishmael” is the chapter on the history of the world as told by jellyfish — how in that telling the jellyfish consider themselves the pinnacle of creation, of course! It’s not arrogance, it’s a natural inclination to put ourselves first. But it’s not justified — and it has terrible consequences for us and others, and our planet.
Temple Grandin is respected by so many because she is blessed with incredible empathy. We can learn so much by trying to sense what others might feel, even if they are different from ourselves. Fright, loneliness, pain, grief — how are we justified in imposing this on others for our own pleasure?
Can everyone thrive on a vegan diet? Well, there are as many types of vegan diets as there are vegans, so Hollie would be well-advised to work with a vegan nutritionist and to post concerns on message boards where other vegans might have some good advice. Maybe she’s allergic to soy. Maybe she needs more raw food. And maybe her body needs more time to transition.
About feeling better when eating a little meat or fish: What magical nutrients or properties are in decaying, necrotic flesh that would make people feel more energetic? I’m not sure I get that. Is it just the body’s familiarity with these animal foods that feels so comforting, maybe?
My hope lies in vat-grown meat, no joke. Someday technology will find a way to grow animal muscle/flesh without the animal — they’re developing it now. It promises to look and taste exactly like meat, so people who want to eat meat can do it without hurting any animals. Meanwhile, those with meat cravings can have veggie meats, milks and cheeses, which are pretty damn good. I ate them a lot when I first went veg in 1991.
Today we had vegan butternut squash and florentine raviolis with a white bean sauce and a side of garlicky fresh green beans, a big salad and some homemade raw kimchee. Love those fermented foods for really good belly health! Maybe we should start talking more about food than philosophy!!
Look, I don’t want to be an antagonist, but factory farming of animals is inextricably tied to factory farming of corn, which is part of an industrial complex that will continue to exist as a much bigger ethical issue for HUMAN BEINGS regardless of whether they eat baby sheep.
After the research I’ve done, I came to the conclusion that I couldn’t participate financially in the support of industrially-farmed corn or soy. That takes being a vegetarian 99% off the table. It also means that I don’t buy factory farmed beef, chicken, or pork. And I don’t buy things from the grocery store that contain processed corn, soy emulsifiers or bulking agents or stabilizers, etc. I buy from Thundering Hooves for beef and pork. I buy eggs from local farmers. I buy milk from Golden Glen Creamery. Neither TH nor GG is “organic” because they treat their cows when they’re sick, but their farming practices are humane and I can go SEE their animals being happy in the fields.
Your experience with not eating meat is the same as mine always is. My food practices have evolved to encompass both my physical requirements for wellness and my emotional requirements for the humane treatment of animals AND people. It can be done.
JoanZ, I’ve been following the vat-grown meat science as well and DAYAM, is that ever super fascinating and cool. I agree — yes, YES, that is so the way to look forward on this. My only concern there would be the same sorts of concerns I have about other bioengineered foodstuff, which hasn’t turned out to be as safe OR good for the environment as scientists initially anticipated it would. But I think over time and with lots of trial and error and effort, all these things can be perfected, and I’m really excited about the prospects of the meat science in particular. Not just for the sake of animals, but also for the sake of the people in our world who go hungry more often than not.
Saska, I wondered if someone might mention corn. When Stephanie pointed out (rightly) the “footprint” of eating meat, I thought of corn immediately (inextricably linked to meat, of course, but also to so much non-meat foods as well, and horrendously destructive for the planet). No idea what the solution there might be. Except for, again, awareness and questioning and dialogue.
Oh, I’ve learned so much today. I love today. Thank you for opening this up to us all, Holls. You see why we need you to keep writing, now, right?
From JoanZ: “About feeling better when eating a little meat or fish: What magical nutrients or properties are in decaying, necrotic flesh that would make people feel more energetic? I’m not sure I get that.”
I think it’s important to keep in mind that there’s a lot we don’t know yet about nutrition and physiology, and may never know. Vegans and vegetarians, or others who have a dietary agenda to push (I include low-carbers, paleo folks, and raw foodists in this,) sometimes get caught up in thinking that we have all the information about nutrition and balanced diets, that it’s all quantifiable, and therefore everyone should be able to thrive on the diet we believe in. Reality is likely a lot more complex than that. I mean, folic acid was only discovered in the 1940s. It was only in the 90s that people began to realize the importance of omega-3 fatty acids and DHA. In the past couple of years, a lot of new information about vitamin D has come to light, and changed recommendations. Do you really think it’s likely that we now know EVERYTHING about nutrition and who needs how much of what? I don’t think it’s a stretch to imagine that there are many things we don’t understand about nutrients and the different ways people’s bodies digest and assimilate nutrients, as well as differing metabolisms, and that those differences might affect how well people thrive on various diets.
I thought it was a little funny that you referred to meat as “decaying, necrotic flesh” and then talked about eating kimchi later in your comment. I LOVE kimchi but couldn’t we accurately refer to it as “old, rotten cabbage” if we wanted to? What magical nutritional properties could old rotten cabbage possibly have? Haha. I’m not sure that kind of spin adds anything to the discussion – in fact, to me, it makes your comments about nutrition seem less credible because your agenda is showing so clearly.
I admit it. I’m busted. I do have an agenda:
To reduce, as much as possible, unnecessary, human-caused animal suffering in the world.
In doing so, is it OK to encourage others to try, as much as they possibly can, to reduce or eliminate the amount of animal products that they consume? Most people find that by eating this way, their own health improves. It takes time to find out what works, and I agree that there is no one formula vegan diet. I am learning more about my body every day, and it’s changing, so my diet changes, too. There’s nothing dogmatic about it.
The free-range, local, sustainable, grassfed, humane, happy meat movement glosses over the slaughter part of the “process,” almost never using the accurate term “kill.” Animals are “sent to market,” or “harvested.” We only hear about happy heifers and frolicking piglets. We “thank” the animals for “giving” their lives. It sounds so spiritual! But could we please just for a moment put ourselves in the place of those who must endure the prods, knives, saws, anticipation, dread, blood, fear, pain, suffering, agony and death for our gustatory pleasure? I would suggest that those who dine on flesh have an agenda, too, and it involves glossing over the premature deaths of beautiful animals who would never choose that fate for themselves and who go screaming and kicking all the way, to the end, to the last dying, agonizing, heaving breath.
The ability to choose comes with great responsibility to choose wisely, especially when the fate of others is involved. Our artificial, self-imposed separation from the animals of this earth, who are our closest companions, is taking us to the brink. I find that many vegans have come to terms with this and no longer see themselves as superior to other animals. They are not our property! I don’t find this way of thinking to be radical. Rather, we are born this way, and we must find our way back to it. That’s what I feel going veg did for me — it restored my sense of oneness and wonder with everything and everyone.
And I enjoy my food so much more, knowing that my plate is a more peaceful place. The rewards are so enormous — in my weight, my health, my outlook, my joy every day.
I just want to encourage Hollie, and others, to keep trying.
My point isn’t that nobody but vegetarians has an agenda, but that your (or anyone else’s) ethical/spiritual/whatever agenda doesn’t necessarily jibe with everyone’s nutritional needs. They are two different conversations, and we have to accept that they may conflict, and figure out how to best reconcile that.
I’m a fan of finding ways to bridge gaps between philosophies, however small the bridges might seem. That’s why I’ve recently become a fan of the Meat-Free Monday campaign (check it out here: http://www.supportmfm.org/). It seems like a step everybody can get together and take, regardless of your idealogical/moral stance (that is, unless you’re someone, ahem, who doesn’t think the environment is in any kind of trouble). For those of us who have already taken Meat-Free Monday to Meat-Free 365, it might seem too easy or like a cop-out (or something, not sure exactly what, having trouble articulating that). But I prefer to think that it’s a seemingly small change that could have a significant impact over time, and like to think about how on Mondays I will be feasting meat-free with millions of other folks around the world.